Why Successful Change Starts with People

Change Starts with People.

Successful Change Is About More Than the Change Itself

Change is part of every organization. New technology, new processes, new responsibilities, new leadership, and new strategies can all create opportunities for growth, but they can also introduce uncertainty for the people expected to make those changes work.

In this episode of Sips & Software, host Jamie Hollinger, Manager of Sales and Revenue Operations at Karmak, is joined by Marv Moreno, Vice President of Sales and Marketing at Karmak, for a conversation about change management, leadership, employee engagement, and what organizations can do to help people successfully navigate change.

Drawing on years of experience helping organizations transform the way they work, Marv challenges a common assumption: people don't necessarily resist change itself. Often, they are responding to the uncertainty surrounding it and wondering what the change will mean for them.

Together, Jamie and Marv explore how leaders can create clarity, encourage meaningful participation, build confidence, and help employees understand how they can contribute to making change successful.

What You'll Learn in This Episode

• Why people may resist the uncertainty surrounding change rather than change itself
• The difference between communicating change and creating employee engagement
• How leaders can build clarity and confidence during periods of transition
• Why different employees experience the same organizational change differently
• How the Four Stages of Contribution can help leaders understand changing roles
• Why training does not automatically lead to technology adoption
• How resistance can help uncover risks and opportunities
• What successful change management looks like during a DMS implementation

Communication Is Not the Same as Engagement

One of the biggest mistakes leaders can make during organizational change is assuming that communicating something means people are engaged with it.

An announcement, presentation, town hall, or new set of instructions may explain what is happening, but employees still need answers to more personal questions: What will change? What won't change? Why is the change necessary? How will it affect my role? And how can I contribute to making it successful?

That distinction matters because the same business decision can look very different depending on where someone sits within an organization. A company may see greater efficiency while an employee hears that their existing knowledge could become less valuable. Leadership may see standardization while a department sees a loss of control.

Effective change management requires leaders to understand both the business case and the human response to it.

Helping People Do Their Best Work

Marv also introduces the idea of efficacy, or the difference between simply doing work and being able to do your best work.

People are better positioned to succeed when they have clear expectations, the skills and tools they need, appropriate authority to make decisions, useful feedback, and confidence in the direction of the organization.

That also means recognizing that people may express uncertainty or disagreement differently. Leaders who create multiple ways for employees to participate can gain a clearer understanding of concerns and avoid mistaking silence for agreement.

The goal isn't to lower expectations for participation. It's to provide more ways for people to participate.

Understanding the Four Stages of Contribution

Another framework explored in the episode is the Four Stages of Contribution, which describes how people contribute as they grow within an organization or move into new responsibilities.

The four stages include:

• Dependent Contribution: Learning the role, organization, processes, and expectations
• Independent Contribution: Developing the expertise to perform successfully on your own
• Contribution Through Others: Creating greater results by developing and relying on others
• Strategic Contribution: Applying a broader organizational or executive perspective

Importantly, people don't simply move through these stages once.

An experienced leader entering a new company or taking on unfamiliar responsibilities may need to temporarily return to dependent contribution. Taking time to understand the organization before attempting major changes can ultimately make that leader more effective.

Training Is Not Adoption

Technology changes make another distinction especially important: training and adoption are not the same thing.

Training gives people knowledge. Adoption happens when employees begin applying that knowledge, changing their behavior, and confidently using a new process or system in their day-to-day work.

The same applies to implementation. A successful launch doesn't mean the change is finished. As Marv explains during the episode, go-live represents the beginning of operational change, not the end.

Resistance also shouldn't automatically be treated as something to eliminate. Concerns from employees can reveal risks or questions that leadership may not have considered.

What Change Management Means During a DMS Implementation

For commercial transportation organizations, implementing a new dealer or business management system is a significant example of organizational change.

The organization isn't simply purchasing software. It's changing how people perform their work.

An executive may be thinking about scalability and financial performance. A parts employee may be wondering whether they can complete Monday morning's transactions. A service manager may be focused on technician productivity, while IT considers security and ownership evaluates return on investment.

All of those perspectives are valid.

Successful technology adoption requires understanding how a system change affects different stakeholders, defining what success actually looks like, and continuing to support employees after implementation.

For Karmak, the goal extends beyond whether Fusion or Blaze is simply live and working. The bigger questions include whether people are using the system confidently, whether processes are improving, whether leaders have greater visibility, and whether customers are ultimately receiving a better experience.

Change Can Build New Capabilities

Change naturally creates uncertainty, but it can also help an organization become capable of something it could not do before.

Throughout his career, Marv has seen organizations enter new markets, launch new technology, develop new capabilities, and turn skeptical employees into advocates for a new direction.

Those outcomes reinforce one of the central ideas of the episode: technology, products, and processes can enable change, but people determine how successfully an organization turns that change into results.

Key Takeaways

• People often resist uncertainty and perceived loss rather than change itself.
• Communicating a change does not automatically create employee engagement.
• Leaders should explain what will change, what won't, why it matters, and how people can contribute.
• Effective leaders understand when they need to listen and learn before driving change.
• Training provides knowledge, but adoption requires behavior change and confidence.
• Resistance can uncover valuable concerns or risks.
• Successful technology implementation continues well beyond go-live.
• Change succeeds when leaders understand what people need in order to succeed through it.

Explore the Podcast

Browse every episode of Sips & Software and discover conversations exploring leadership, technology, customer success, and the commercial transportation industry.

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Frequently Asked Questions

What is change management?

Change management is the process of helping people and organizations successfully navigate changes in technology, processes, responsibilities, strategy, or ways of working. Effective change management involves helping people understand why a change is happening, what it means for them, and what they need to succeed through the transition.

Why do employees resist organizational change?

Employees may not necessarily resist change itself. Resistance can come from uncertainty about how the change will affect their role, responsibilities, expertise, or future within the organization. Leaders can help reduce that uncertainty through clarity, communication, listening, and meaningful participation.

What is the difference between communication and engagement during change?

Communication provides information about a change. Engagement is more interactive and includes understanding employee perspectives, answering questions, gathering feedback, and helping people see how they can contribute to making the change successful.

What are the Four Stages of Contribution?

The Four Stages of Contribution describe different ways employees contribute within an organization: dependent contribution, independent contribution, contribution through others, and strategic contribution. People may move between these stages as they take on new roles or responsibilities.

Why isn't training the same as adoption?

Training provides knowledge about a new technology or process. Adoption occurs when employees consistently apply that knowledge and change their behavior in ways that make the new process part of their everyday work.

Why is change management important during a DMS implementation?

A new dealer or business management system can affect workflows, responsibilities, reporting, customer interactions, and daily tasks across an organization. Successful adoption requires understanding the needs of different stakeholders and continuing to support employees beyond go-live.

Episode Transcript

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Jamie Hollinger (00:00)
Welcome back to the next episode of the Sips & Software Podcast, where we talk about the people, the ideas, and the technology shaping the heavy-duty transportation industry. Every one of us has experienced change in one way or the other, whether it's starting a new job, moving to a new home, learning new technology, or just walking into work one day realizing everything is about to change. One thing that usually holds true though is most people don't actually resist that change. They resist the uncertainty, so the unknown of the change.

So today we're gonna drill in and talk about something every organization experiences, but few believe they're particularly good at: change. My guest today, I'm very excited to bring him on. He is Karmak's Vice President of Sales and Marketing, Marv Moreno. Marv has spent most of his career helping organizations navigate change, develop strong leaders, and transform the way that teams work together. So

I'm very excited to get going. I hope that you are too. So grab your favorite drink and let's get going.

Jamie Hollinger (01:01)
All right, Marv, how are you today?

Marv Moreno (01:03)
Hey, it's good to see you. I'm doing great. How about you?

Jamie Hollinger (01:07)
Good, why are you matching me? Did you purposely do that?

Marv Moreno (01:11)
you could say that, but you and I have a history of actually ever since we started working together wearing the same

Jamie Hollinger (01:16)
That is funny.

Marv Moreno (01:17)
shirt collar. Don't know why. And it hasn't

Jamie Hollinger (01:19)
Mm-hmm.

Marv Moreno (01:21)
happened in while and out of nowhere today here we are.

Jamie Hollinger (01:25)
I almost texted you to say what color are you wearing? Because we did we matched like every like the first ten meetings we had, we had the same shirt on, same color. So funny. anyway, so thank you for joining. I'm so excited to get into the meat of the content with you today for our listeners. before we begin, so assuming you've watched all my episodes, I like okay, good.

Marv Moreno (01:45)
I have. I'm a big fan.

Jamie Hollinger (01:46)
Good, good, good. I like to start with asking everyone what is in their cup. So what's in your cup? What are you drinking?

and also like what fills your cup. So what when Marv is cranky Marv, not saying that you are I'm kidding.

Marv Moreno (02:02)
Ha ha.

Jamie Hollinger (02:03)
what what brings you happiness? So those two things.

Marv Moreno (02:07)
Yeah, absolutely. So in my cup I have just plain southern unsweet iced tea because it's 110 degrees outside and it's what keeps me refreshed. Now, what fills my cup? You know, that's a long answer, so I'll give you a very short version of it. For me, it's always about the opportunity to work with great talent and help develop them to get to the next level, whether that's in our organization or whatever they want to do in their career.

And connecting that to just my family and my upbringing, understanding where I came from, what I have been able to accomplish in my career, all the places I've seen around the world in that process, and ultimately connecting everything back to what matters most, which is the people who are here at home. What about you? What's in your cup?

Jamie Hollinger (02:57)
Wonderful. Yeah.

I am drinking so coffee, which is kind of my go-to, especially at you know two o'clock in the afternoon, my second cup. But Jim Allen, I think this is his way of getting on the podcast because he right he watched and he told me that I should drink bulletproof, and so I went and bought it.

went to Target and so I'm trying it and it's it's good. I will tell him it was a good recommendation. It's a little strong, but I'm doing it. So I I think I can get there. I think I can move to just black coffee. But and then of course water. Coffee and water. That's gotta have gotta have the water.

Marv Moreno (03:31)
of course you're gonna have that. It's the summer. And then

I've heard you know, obviously I've listened to your other episodes. What has filled your cup recently?

Jamie Hollinger (03:39)
I'm so glad that you asked me that. So I talked to Giulia in our second episode about Noah Kahan who is an artist. I know I told you about him and you don't know who he is. I'm very disappointed, but I'll let it slide. But I actually took my daughter. She convinced me she did a whole like twenty point PowerPoint slide of why she deserves it and why I should take her, and she sold me. So we we went and saw Noah Kahan So for me, one on one time.

fills my cup. So her and I went to the concert, it was a blast. It was a Busch Stadium and it was a great bonding experience. So that that fills my cup. Makes me feel happy. Yeah.

Marv Moreno (04:13)
That's fantastic. Sounds like your

daughter should be on the pipeline for talent selection in the future.

Jamie Hollinger (04:20)
Yeah, you want to hire her? A couple years? No, she's a little young, but she could sell.

Marv Moreno (04:23)
In a few years.

Jamie Hollinger (04:24)
She sold me. so anywho, okay, so this is great stuff. So today we're talking about change.

Before we get into the meat of the content for this episode, I want you to answer this one question. So people hate change.

Marv Moreno (04:41)
It is false or at least incomplete. And let me explain you why. People in their lives, they change constantly. At work, you adopt new technologies, you take on new responsibilities, you can be a a witness to that.

In your personal life, you also go through changes, right? And it's it's it's dictated by family situation, children, etc. So it's not necessarily that people fear change, they fear loss. And the distinction matters because leaders often tend to label someone who is resistant to change when somebody is really asking, where do I fit in the future?

Jamie Hollinger (05:22)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think it definitely is you know, they have to understand the why, right? Like what so what have you seen? Like why is it difficult? Why why is change difficult for people and employees? What have you seen in your experience?

Marv Moreno (05:35)
Yeah, you know, many times leaders, obviously it's our job to to lead with the business case of change. whether that is we need to become more efficient, we need to grow. But you gotta always see it from the lens of talent, which is obviously the most important element of any organization. When a company is saying, We'll become more efficient, an employee may be hearing, my knowledge may no longer be valuable.

The company may say we're standardizing process. A department may be thinking we're losing control. Company may be saying, or a leader may be saying, we're adopting a new technology, right? You manage CRM for our organization. Imagine if I were to tell you, we're going a completely new platform. What comes to mind?

Jamie Hollinger (06:24)
I would

I I would probably run away. I mean

Marv Moreno (06:27)
Okay.

Jamie Hollinger (06:28)
not saying there are maybe other b better plat platforms out there, but it's yeah, change can be hard and it's right. The first thing I think of is the WIIFM you know, what's in it for me? What why and why the change and understanding that.

Marv Moreno (06:42)
absolutely. And so the message will be perceived differently by different people where based on where they are in the organization and at what stage in their career journey they are.

Jamie Hollinger (06:55)
And so how do you as a leader, how do you help them navigate that change or understand the change?

Marv Moreno (07:01)
You know, from what I've seen in working with organizations big and small throughout my career,

Jamie Hollinger (07:05)
Mm-hmm.

Marv Moreno (07:06)
I think one of the big mistakes that leaders make is to they think that communicating something means that the organization is engaged. And and there's a big difference. Communicating, presenting a slide deck, having an all-hands meeting or a town hall to announce a change in the strategy.

That's very different in terms of how people are going to engage. People want to know what will change, what will not change, why is the change necessary, and more importantly, how can I contribute to making that change successful?

Jamie Hollinger (07:46)
so whenever you think about like someone so if I'm in the other side of it, like how can I make it successful? How can I how how do I care about the change? Like everyone contributes in different ways, right? In different levels throughout the organization. So how do you do you look at that? Like how do you communicate an end user change to someone higher up in the company and making sure everyone's on the same page?

Marv Moreno (08:07)
Yeah, you know, so

I there there's a couple of things. I mean it's it's it's a it's a multi multi part answer. I I'll give you an example. So when you you renovated your house, I'm assuming, at some point.

Jamie Hollinger (08:21)
y no. I'm getting. We have in the past, but not this one necessarily. But I know what you mean.

Marv Moreno (08:23)
Alright, so

Jamie Hollinger (08:26)
Yeah.

Marv Moreno (08:27)
imagine if you're renovating your kitchen

and

Jamie Hollinger (08:30)
Yep.

Marv Moreno (08:30)
the architect is presenting a beautiful rendering how the kitchen, the end result is gonna look like. But during the construction process, you can't find the coffee maker, the pantry may be outside in the patio, and so what happens? At some point, inherently humans, right, we start thinking, wow, was that old kitchen really that bad?

Did I need to go through that pain of going through this change? And so, you know, the there there's a one of my favorite books, the hard things about hard things, talks about how leadership is not necessarily tested when things are good, but when things are not so good. So leaders are tested when they don't have a perfect answer.

And what I've learned is that in order to really get engagement from team members and from the organization in general, is to really level set. When there's no perfect answer, a leader still has to make a decision. And guess what? Sometimes it is okay to admit that we don't have the answers, but that we're gonna work through the process and get to them.

Jamie Hollinger (09:44)
Yeah, and that hearing that I think is so important of just not always having the answers.

Marv Moreno (09:48)
Exactly. And and you know, so some some in my in my career I've been involved in transformation, go to market transformation, revamping of organizations, accelerating growth. And so when I go into a situation like this, there's some basic questions that I don't deviate from. And what I want to understand is if the people that are involved in this movement, whether it's a leap in technology or a complete shift in their go to market strategy, do they understand what is happening?

Because that is all about clarity. Do I believe, do I believe as an employee that the people who are leading this change know what they're doing? This is all about confidence. Do they understand what that change is gonna mean for them? And more importantly, will I be able to be successful when the change is completed? And so a leader that is in tune with those questions or the ver a version of those questions will more inherently

be able to get engagement and get people really rallied around whatever they're trying to accomplish in their organization.

Jamie Hollinger (10:53)
let's talk a little bit about in the same change realm, how you like what you listened for, what you looked for whenever you would go in before your job with with Karmak your career with Karmak what you would look for whenever you would go in and consult from a change standpoint.

Marv Moreno (11:09)
Absolutely. And so, you know, I've been I've been blessed to work with, like I mentioned earlier, startup companies that are either on a pre on a on a seed investment stage, series A, Series B, and as well as established organizations. And a couple of things that come to mind as you ask me this, I always lead with what are some of the differences that are present themselves in the workplace? How are they gonna manifest themselves?

As we go through this process, transformation process. And so I anchor myself in a concept that I've learned when I was myself in consulting for an organization many years ago. This concept is called efficacy. It's the difference between people doing work and doing their best work. And what I learned throughout the years is that people do their best work when they have clear expectations, they have the necessary skills to be successful, they have the right tools.

They have the authority to make decisions. There's a feedback loop. And more importantly, there's confidence. There's a confidence, there's confidence at the leadership level, at the executive level, that the contributions can actually, their contributions can produce the tangible results that are needed. And so one of the great things about the work that I've done is being exposed to multiple cultures around the world. And I've learned to incorporate a concept.

Which is called appreciating differences across people and cultures. So what that means is that the needs, the human needs, the underlying human needs are remarkably consistent, but the way that people express those concerns can be very different. And leaders who can tune in into this very simple concept can then maximize not only the engagement of their organization.

But it's it allows for organizations to create innovation from within.

Jamie Hollinger (13:08)
That is such a cool topic. so talk a little bit about that in yours. You've traveled a lot. Like how many countries? Eighty countries.

Marv Moreno (13:15)
Eighty countries. Eighty well,

eighty-five and let's see, some trips later this year. Eighty-five countries around the world.

Jamie Hollinger (13:23)
That's insane. What's your favorite?

Marv Moreno (13:27)
Thailand and Vietnam is a close second.

Jamie Hollinger (13:30)
there you go. I've never been to either one.

Talk about talk a little bit about the organizational culture and how they handle change and is there anything we can adopt here, you know, to make sure that we're successful whenever we change things at Karmak or our customers.

Marv Moreno (13:44)
Yeah, a hundred percent. And so, you know, I think that the one of the things again and going back to the concept of appreciating differences, the way that people respond to leaders when a leader is introducing again a new directive or a transformation strategy, it's very important to understand how it how how it relates to again what is in it for me. And so

One of the things that I noticed in my career is that in some cultures, and I you can argue that our culture is like this. When we have we we we are allowed, we're encouraged to express our voice, we're encouraged to to actually constructively provide feedback and try to make sure that we are doing all the right things to get us to the better state. Now, that is not necessarily the way that, for example, the Asian culture works best, they do the best work.

I've been in situations where there's silence in the room, and it's very easy to assume that that silence means consensus and agreement, only to learn that when you either walk out of the room or you go back to your home country, right? If you were having meetings, for example, in the Asia Pacific region, you were traveling there, you were driving change throughout an organization or or a specific team in a specific country, come to find out weeks or months later that.

There's complete disagreement in terms of how they see the value of what you're trying to accomplish. And so that lesson about 15 years ago taught me that you have to create an engagement through so that there can be direct debate. And what that means is that you have to either pivot and shift where you have either small kind of focus group situations to help people process change.

Or you actually create advocates that can help people process and navigate the uncertainties of change. So it's not necessarily a one size fits all approach, but it's really about adjusting that approach. Smaller group discussions, there's tremendous power in having those. But the lesson, the biggest lesson learned for me, was always not to lower the expect expectation for participation.

It's allowing more ways for people to participate in change.

Jamie Hollinger (16:13)
so it it's about all about stages of contribution, right? And everyone contributing in different ways. So can you talk a little bit about you we've talked about this before, about the different stages of contributors and contribution across teams.

Marv Moreno (16:25)
Yeah, you know, that's that's that's a great point. And again, going back to my days of organizational consulting, the one of the one of the research-based models that I anchor myself in early on, now we're turning the clock almost 20 years, with something called the four stages of contribution. I just gave my age away, right? The four stages of contribution is a research-based model and it's a great way to describe

The transition that people go when not only when they change roles, when they make lateral, even vertical moves in an organization, but more importantly, when you're coming in out from outside of the organization to a new or from outside of the organization, you're coming in new. And and and really, it's very simple. No matter what role you have, and what role you're moving into, there's gonna be a learning period for you to understand.

whether it's if it's a new company, the culture, how the organization works, and what are some of the things that a SWOT analysis, what's working well, what's not working so well, where's the opportunities and and and what are some of the the downfalls of not going through some changes in the future. Where I've seen a lot of leaders fail is where they immediately come in into a a new role, a new organization, and they start completely overhauling

Either their own leadership team, or they completely start changing processes without having that base knowledge. Because ultimately, and let's talk about executives, right? An executive, there's four stages of contribution to answer your question. There's dependent contribution, this is a learning stage. There's independent contribution, this is where you are almost like a subject matter expert. You go, you do your job and you're really good at it.

There's contribution through others, which means that you have the ability to create exponential level type of results by relying on the people in your team. And then, of course, there's strategic contribution. This is more of an executive type of lens.

And people tip typically associate this with a C-suite. No matter who you are in your career journey, you always have to remember that any of the moves that I described previously, that you take those first 60 to 90 days to be a dependent contributor so that you can then move effectively to where you need to be based on the new role that you have been brought into or that you were moved to.

Jamie Hollinger (19:07)
I was just gonna say, like, is it always lateral? Or you know, is it always one after the other? Or do people I guess sometimes you switch and jump around different stages of contribution, right? Yeah.

Marv Moreno (19:17)
Yes, absolutely.

There will be times in which you will actually move up and down because it is part of leading by example. So for example, there are times in which I have come in at a at a at a stage four, that executive level type contribution strategic. But because I am creating a go-to-market, a sales playbook from scratch, I'm I'm I'm I'm onboarding, recruiting, onboarding and developing that.

first round of talent that that organization is gonna have that first layer of of sales talent. I have to model the behaviors so that my my hires actually can learn for me in terms how to be effective at what I need them to do very effectively, which then allows me to move to the next thing.

Jamie Hollinger (20:07)
Yeah, that's that's very humbling, right, for experienced employees, like seeing someone come in or, you know, not coming in and just wanting to change everything from the high the top level, but coming in and contributing and understanding at every level, right?

Marv Moreno (20:22)
Absolutely. And and and because I've gone through it so many times just in the functions that I've been, I think it's it's it it it connects well, at least for me, it connects well with who I am as a person. I think it's the ability to say, I don't know this, is the confidence to say, I don't know this. I need you to explain this to me. I also don't have a problem to say you are the subject matter expert. I am learning from you. But this humility and this self

realization is key to ensure that then you can maximize the value that you will bring in that new role because there's a reason why you were selected to go into a into a new company or into a new role.

Jamie Hollinger (21:05)
I think you actually said that on a meeting yesterday. You're like, well, I'm gonna let you guys make the decisions because you guys are the smart ones and you know,

but that's trusting in your team, right? And to you to your point, being humble.

Yeah. As a leader.

Marv Moreno (21:17)
100%, you know, and and I've always said that the the

mark of a true leader is having people not only that that he or she can rely on, but that they can make independent decisions. And I and you can be a testament to this. I think also what I like to tell to my teams throughout my career is use me as a resource. I will help your success because ultimately going back to what fills my cup, it's all about helping just my team members and

Looking at them as individuals, appreciating their differences, helping them progress and be successful in their career, whatever that means for them. Each one of them is different. It doesn't mean that I make exceptions to establish the standards of work or even how we go about having our own what I call our sales operating system. It just means that every individual on my team.

deserves a different level of coaching and mentoring because we're all different.

Jamie Hollinger (22:17)
Okay, I'm gonna we're gonna do something fun. I'm gonna put you on the spot, but you know I like to have fun. So we're gonna do a little rapid fire round. You ready?

Marv Moreno (22:24)
Sounds good. Putting me on the spot.

I'm I'm up for the challenge

Jamie Hollinger (22:26)
Okay.

so I'm gonna give you a statement and just respond in like one or two sentences around change. So okay.

Marv Moreno (22:33)
Let's go.

Jamie Hollinger (22:34)
People support what they help create.

Marv Moreno (22:38)
Most of the time true, but leaders should not confuse participation with unlimited decision rights.

Jamie Hollinger (22:47)
Over communication is impossible during change.

Marv Moreno (22:51)
You can repeat information over and over again without gaining understanding. So the communication has to be consistent, but it has to be two-way.

Jamie Hollinger (23:02)
The loudest critic is the biggest problem.

Marv Moreno (23:06)
Not necessarily. The loud critic may be providing valuable information. The greater risk may be the person who has quietly disengaged.

Jamie Hollinger (23:16)
Goes for customers too, right? When someone's quiet, there might be a problem.

Marv Moreno (23:20)
Silence

does not mean everything is good. Silence sometimes means things are so bad that I just not going to deal with this situation or this organization or this even think about it from this strategic deployment.

Jamie Hollinger (23:38)
Okay,

training equals adoption.

Marv Moreno (23:40)
False. Training is just giving knowledge. When people actually use the training to change the behavior so they can be much more effective, that is adoption.

Jamie Hollinger (23:51)
I would agree with that. A successful launch means the change is complete. It's done.

Marv Moreno (23:58)
That is absolutely 100% false. And let's talk about what we do at Karmak We go live when we install either Fusion or Blaze as your business management system. Go live is the beginning of the operational change. It's not the end. This is where our relationship and our partnership truly starts.

Jamie Hollinger (24:22)
And

we're gonna come back to that because I would I do wanna tie this back to our customers and the industry. But one more. resistance should be eliminated.

Marv Moreno (24:29)
It should be understood.

Jamie Hollinger (24:33)
Tell me a little more on that.

Marv Moreno (24:35)
Well, sometimes resistance reveals risks that we have not thought through.

Jamie Hollinger (24:43)
So it's more about understanding why the resistance, the why behind the resistance. I like that.

Marv Moreno (24:47)
Correct.

Jamie Hollinger (24:48)
Okay. this is awesome. So let's bring it back to Karmak and the heavy duty trucking industry, right? So a dealership, service shop, they may have used the same business system for years, right? And processes, kind of like us, like everything.

Not

everything. A lot of what we do is in Salesforce. Just like a lot of our customers, everything they do is in Fusion or Blaze or any other DMS. So what happens, you know, when talk a little bit about that and how when an organization begins considering a new DMS, whether it be Fusion Blaze or anyone, and what does that look like? Like how how does how does change get best adopted for those big scenarios like that? Because it is a big change.

Marv Moreno (25:29)
Yeah, you know, that's a very deep question.

It's a deep question because they're not just buying your software. They're actually considering how people are gonna do their work differently. And it means different things to different people. So let's let's be more specific. The executive team, they're focused on can this new system scale? Allow me to scale? Will I get the financial performance that they talked to me about during the sales process?

A parts employee is all concerned about what's gonna happen on Monday when I go into this new system. Can I do my parts transaction? Because guess what? It doesn't matter if we change the system, I still have to perform. A service manager, they're concerned about technician productivity. Is that gonna go away? Is that gonna improve? How quickly will it improve? IT is focused about do I have new security issues that I have to worry about on a daily basis? And the owner, he's thinking,

How quickly will this return on investment realize itself? All the perspectives are valid. And so it is our job, and that's what we do very differently, differently at Karmak We address all those concerns because it's the fear of making the wrong decision what we want to make sure we overcome.

Jamie Hollinger (26:48)
And so talk about that a little more. Like how how does Karmak do that? Like how do we guide a customer through that uncertainty? Or when they have different departments have concerns like that? Like how do we how do we handle that?

Marv Moreno (27:00)
We call that at Karmak client success. And it be and it really starts even before the implementation begins. Because what we're really focusing on is during the evaluation, the business outcomes that are going to drive the decision, who's going to be affected, where could resistance emerge? How are we going to define adoption and more importantly a successful adoption? How will leadership remain visible through the process? And what does six the 30, 60, 90 day postcode live look like?

And so you had previously in one of your episodes, Michelle Sawyer, a client success manager. Her team is vested to ensuring that, and so I've always seen it in the different software organizations I've been involved, companies may walk out of a go live with maybe a 10, 12, 13% usable knowledge of an existing new package, a new software system. It is our goal with every touch point to increase that percentage efficiency because guess what?

If you get from that 15% to 20% usage, you will find more efficiency in your workflows, digital workflow realization, which inherently will help that ROI realization and it'll mean something differently from each of the each of the stakeholders in the decision.

Jamie Hollinger (28:19)
And

working with those stakeholders, we have a project management team that works directly with them, right? So they I would assume that they go through the different steps that each the different thought process that each team is gonna go through, like the examples you gave earlier, because everyone has different concerns and different obstacles that they wanna make sure they accomplish, you know, through the setup phase and go live and implementation. Right, so it's

Marv Moreno (28:41)
Yeah, you know, and we we try to we

we try to do our best to guide our our prospects soon to be customers through that uncertainty. We leave we we we start by listening. And this is attentive listening. We established, we clearly establish and agree what those business reasons for change. We make sure that the right people are involved right away, and we prepare people for transition because remember we talked about that human psychological element. What is going what is adopting

A new system going to mean for my job moving forward? So the question for us is not merely, hey, is is fusion or blaze a lot? Is it live and is it working? Is it the questions that we really need to answer is are people using it confidently? are the new processes working? Are the leaders actually getting more or much better visibility? And are customers, their customers,

Are they experiencing an improvement in the way they're being serviced? Because ultimately that's the end goal, that the customers of our customers have a better experience than they had before.

Jamie Hollinger (29:50)
sometimes people assume change is gonna be negative. there's uncertainty, it's difficult. But like it's also rewarding, right? Like there's also a very fun positive side of change. So

Give us an example or like what are your thoughts on the the positive side? we can't do things that we've always done just because we've always done it that way. Like it's one of your favorite quotes, right? so what what's some takeaways for our audiences for being excited about change and what's rewarding regarding change?

Marv Moreno (30:21)
A fantastic question, Jamie. And I I I I'm just come to mind a software company that wanted to enter foreign markets and how we establish a new partner network to enable that. an organization that wanted to launch a new SaaS platform and what it required in terms of retraining the sales organization and then finding a new set of ISBs and VARs. That's so my specific some specific examples. None of them were easy.

And if you ask me why did you put yourself through that? What you kept going through this over and over again in your practice, I'll tell you why. There was a reward for me. And the reward was in so many ways, it manifested in so many ways. It was not just the accomplishment of saying, I got it done, but it was watching that organization become more capable of something they couldn't do before. It was that founder, that leader who hired me, coming back to me and saying,

I have now full visibility and I have a clear path where how are we going to grow this? And then trying to talk them out into not hiring me full-time because I was a consultant at that time. Looking at a longtime

Jamie Hollinger (31:28)
Mm.

Marv Moreno (31:28)
employee who was skeptical about the work that I was doing coming from the outside, what is this outsider gonna teach us that we don't know? And seeing that into a turnaround situation, that person becoming my strongest, my strongest advocate in this new process. And so

For an organization says we learn, we adapt it, we launch, we successfully enter a new market, we handle that and gave us a competitive advantage. So many rewards when it comes to doing it the right way.

Jamie Hollinger (32:03)
And the people behind it. Like it goes back to the people.

Marv Moreno (32:06)
absolutely because at the end of the day,

It's not your software, it's not your product, it's not your service it's the people that allow you to be different. It's the people you can count on to service your customers, it's the people you can count on to develop what's next so we can continue to provide innovative solutions in our industry. That's what really matters.

Jamie Hollinger (32:30)
It's like a little cherry on top. I

Marv Moreno (32:32)
Ha ha ha.

Jamie Hollinger (32:33)
love it.

Okay, so I like to end the episode with kind of like a strong final takeaway or what's something that you can a piece of advice you can give our audience regarding change? If it's personal within their own organization, what can you share?

Marv Moreno (32:48)
Yeah, for leaders, I would say just don't ask what needs to change. Make sure that you understand what are what is it that your people need in order to allow for that change to be successful. And it's it's it's it's

Jamie Hollinger (33:00)
I love that.

Marv Moreno (33:01)
it's simple. Give them clarity. Listen to their perspectives, make those difficult decisions when they need to be made, but make sure that you build their capabilities and stay present through the implementation process.

Jamie Hollinger (33:15)
You ask us all the time in meetings, like, what do you need to be successful?

Marv Moreno (33:20)
It is something that I truly believe in because

Jamie Hollinger (33:21)
Yeah. Yep.

Marv Moreno (33:22)
I don't know what I don't know, Jamie, but it is my job to ensure that I'm facilitating and removing roadblocks so that each of you can realize your best work. Efficacy is doing your best work.

Jamie Hollinger (33:35)
Efficacy. That's a great word.

Marv, thank you so much for joining us today and talking about change management. It is super important to make sure your company has their eyes and ears on it. it's very important, right? So we appreciate your insights and the experience that you've had and that you brought to the episode today.

Marv Moreno (33:53)
Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. It just down memory lane of what my career journey has been. And although hope is not a strategy, my hope is that our audience finds value in what we talked about today.

Jamie Hollinger (34:06)
Yep, same, same. I love it. okay, so for our listeners, thanks for joining in and listening, whether you're on the road, at work, driving down the highway. As always, thanks for being here. We hope you grab your favorite drink and join us for the next time. Cheers.

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