What’s Next for Karmak and Commercial Transportation

Looking Ahead with Karmak CEO Jim Allen.

Where Technology, Leadership, and the Industry Go Next

The commercial transportation industry is changing quickly. Artificial intelligence is creating new possibilities, mobile service continues to grow, consolidation is reshaping organizations, and businesses are looking for ways to increase capacity and operate more efficiently.

So what does all of that mean for what comes next?

In this episode of Sips & Software, host Jamie Hollinger, Manager of Sales and Revenue Operations at Karmak, sits down with Jim Allen, President & CEO of Karmak, for a wide-ranging conversation about technology, leadership, employee ownership, and the trends shaping the industry.

Jim also reflects on his journey from customer-facing leadership to CEO and why staying close to customers continues to influence the way he leads Karmak.

From AI and technician productivity to customer relationships and Karmak’s own direction, the conversation explores how technology can create meaningful business value without losing sight of the people doing the work.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• How Jim Allen’s career at Karmak led to the CEO role
• How employee ownership is influencing Karmak’s culture
• Why technician capacity has become a larger operational challenge
• Where AI could create value for dealers and service operations
• How business systems are evolving from systems of record to systems of intelligence
• How organizations can evaluate whether an AI use case is truly strategic
• Why governance and human oversight remain important as AI adoption increases
• How Jim approaches leadership and decision-making
• Why customer relationships remain important as technology evolves
• How Jim sees Karmak’s role in what comes next

Staying Close to the Industry

Jim didn’t join Karmak with a master plan to eventually become CEO.

After joining the company in 2014, his responsibilities expanded from customer-facing roles into executive leadership. He created Karmak’s Client Services group, later became COO, and eventually stepped into the CEO role in 2021.

Each step gave him a broader view of the organization and a greater sense of responsibility to Karmak’s customers, employees, shareholders, and the industry.

That responsibility also influenced his decision to buy a semi truck and earn his CDL. For Jim, understanding the industry means getting closer to the reality experienced by the businesses and people Karmak ultimately supports.

Employee Ownership and an Ownership Mindset

Karmak’s transition to 100% employee ownership has also changed how the company thinks about its future.

For Jim, being an ESOP is about more than financial participation. It creates an opportunity for employees to think differently about their responsibilities and what it means to act as an owner.

That can mean taking greater ownership of a customer experience, making thoughtful decisions, and understanding how individual actions contribute to the performance of the broader organization.

Jim believes that ownership mindset is becoming an increasingly meaningful part of Karmak’s culture.

Creating More Capacity with Technology

The industry isn’t experiencing just one shift.

Jim points to changing market conditions, equipment costs, interest rates, wages, regulatory uncertainty, consolidation, and the ongoing technician shortage as forces affecting businesses throughout the industry.

The technician shortage in particular has become more than a recruiting problem. It creates a larger operational question:

How can an organization produce more billable work with the technicians it already has?

That’s where Jim sees technology playing an increasingly important role.

Diagnostics, scheduling, parts availability, mobile service, training, connected vehicles, and AI can all contribute to more efficient workflows and help organizations turn information into action.

From a System of Record to a System of Intelligence

Historically, a dealer or business management system has largely documented what already happened.

Jim believes the next generation of these systems will do considerably more.

Rather than simply recording activity, business systems can increasingly help organizations understand what is happening, anticipate what may happen next, recommend actions, and eventually help orchestrate the workflows surrounding those decisions.

For technicians and service advisors, some of the greatest potential may come from technology that provides better information while reducing administrative work that doesn’t require human judgment.

As Jim explains:

“The technology should make the person more capable and responsive. It shouldn’t make the relationship colder.”

That distinction matters in an industry where relationships and trust remain essential.

A Practical Test for AI

As businesses experiment with artificial intelligence, Jim offers a straightforward framework for deciding where it deserves serious attention.

AI should move one of five things:

• Revenue
• Capacity
• Margin
• Cash
• Customer experience

If AI can help capture more work, increase technician capacity, reduce leakage, free working capital, or improve the customer experience, there may be a meaningful business case to explore.

If it can’t connect to one of those outcomes, Jim argues that it may still be interesting, but it may not be strategic yet.

He also distinguishes AI experimentation from AI adoption.

Allowing employees to explore AI tools is experimentation. Adoption happens when the technology changes how a business process actually performs and is supported by ownership, training, governance, integration, and measurable outcomes.

Responsible AI Requires Governance

AI also introduces risks that businesses need to manage.

Jim describes the right approach as “prudent vigilance.”

Organizations don’t have to choose between innovation and responsibility. They can continue exploring emerging technology while establishing clear ownership, guardrails, checkpoints, and human oversight.

AI systems can still make mistakes, which makes it important to understand where the technology is being used, validate its output, and maintain human judgment where necessary.

The goal isn’t simply to use AI because it’s available. It’s to apply it purposefully to meaningful business problems.

Leadership Is About Responsibility, Not the Title

Jim’s perspective on leadership follows a similar philosophy: stay curious, listen to the people around you, and don’t let the title become more important than the responsibility.

He describes the people he wants around him as hungry, humble, and smart.

Each quality matters. Hunger without humility can damage a culture. Intelligence without hunger may not create momentum. Humility without the confidence to make decisions can leave a leader stuck.

Jim summarizes his own relationship with leadership in one particularly memorable line:

“This CEO role is rented, not owned.”

His responsibility is to help build an organization that can continue succeeding long after any individual leader leaves it.

That also means expecting the people around him to challenge his thinking and being willing to change his position when presented with better information.

Intellect Before Emotion

Asked for the best leadership advice he has received, Jim shares another principle he continues to practice:

“I before E: intellect before emotion.”

Leadership sometimes requires difficult conversations and decisions. Jim’s approach is to avoid allowing the emotion of the moment to determine how those situations are handled.

Taking time to understand the situation, manage the initial reaction, and approach another person with respect can create a better conversation and a better outcome.

For Jim, that ultimately comes back to trying to be the kind of leader he would want to work for.

More Than Product at Karmak Conference

The conversation also looks ahead to the 2026 Karmak Conference & Expo, taking place October 20–22 in St. Louis.

While customers will have opportunities to see what’s next across Karmak’s products, Jim emphasizes another part of Conference that he values: the conversations between customers, industry leaders, partners, and Karmak employees.

He describes Conference as a “working session for the industry,” where structured education is only part of the value.

The goal is for attendees to leave with ideas, processes, perspectives, or decisions they can take back to their own organizations, while also having opportunities to help shape where Karmak goes next.

What’s Next for Karmak?

Jim closes the episode by bringing many of these ideas together.

Karmak combines industry knowledge, operational data, customer relationships, and technology embedded within the workflows where work actually happens.

Across Fusion, Blaze, Truckmore, Karmak Mobile Service+, Unity Pro, and the broader integration ecosystem, Jim sees an opportunity to better connect the journey from vehicle information through the completed repair and customer relationship.

But that opportunity requires focus.

“We shouldn’t chase every shiny object. We should identify meaningful problems, select the right technology, measure the result, and scale what works.”

Technology will continue to change. AI capabilities will advance. Business models will adapt.

The objective remains much more familiar: solve meaningful problems, help people work more effectively, and continue creating value for the businesses Karmak serves.

Key Takeaways

• Commercial transportation is experiencing simultaneous changes in technology, labor, service models, consolidation, and customer expectations.
• Technology can help businesses create more capacity without simply adding people.
• Business systems are evolving from systems of record toward systems of intelligence that can provide context and help orchestrate workflows.
• AI initiatives should connect to meaningful outcomes such as revenue, capacity, margin, cash, or customer experience.
• AI experimentation is different from successful adoption within a business process.
• Governance and human oversight remain important as AI capabilities expand.
• Technology should make people more capable without making customer relationships less personal.
• Strong leadership requires humility, accountability, curiosity, and a willingness to change direction when presented with better information.
• Karmak’s approach to emerging technology is to identify meaningful problems, choose the right technology, measure results, and scale what works.

Frequently Asked Questions

How is AI changing the commercial transportation industry?

AI can help businesses interpret information faster, reduce administrative work, support technicians, improve workflows, and create more consistent customer experiences. Jim believes some of the most useful applications will be embedded within existing workflows rather than appearing as standalone AI tools.

How can a business determine whether an AI use case is valuable?

Jim recommends asking whether AI can meaningfully affect revenue, capacity, margin, cash, or customer experience. Connecting an AI initiative to a measurable business outcome helps distinguish strategic adoption from experimentation.

What is the difference between AI experimentation and AI adoption?

Experimentation involves learning how AI tools can be used. Adoption occurs when the technology changes how a business process actually performs and is supported by ownership, training, governance, integration, and measurable outcomes.

Will AI replace technicians?

Jim’s perspective is that AI can make technicians more effective by providing better information and reducing administrative work. Physical repairs still require people to diagnose problems, find parts, complete repairs, document the work, and maintain customer relationships.

What does “system of record to system of intelligence” mean?

A system of record primarily documents transactions and what has already happened. A system of intelligence can use the information available to provide context, anticipate what may happen, recommend actions, and help coordinate workflows.

Why is AI governance important?

AI systems can produce incorrect or unreliable output. Clear ownership, guardrails, checkpoints, validation, and human oversight help organizations explore AI while managing the risks associated with using it in business processes and decision-making.

How does Jim Allen describe his leadership philosophy?

Jim describes himself as a servant leader and emphasizes staying part of the team, listening to employees, remaining open to being challenged, and surrounding himself with people who are hungry, humble, and smart. His description of the CEO role as “rented, not owned” reflects his view that leadership is a responsibility rather than ownership of a title.

What is Karmak’s approach to emerging technology?

Jim describes an approach centered on meaningful business problems rather than technology for technology’s sake: select the appropriate technology, measure the result, and scale what works.

Explore the Podcast

Browse every episode of Sips & Software and discover conversations exploring leadership, technology, customer success, and the commercial transportation industry.

‍

‍

Episode Transcript

Jamie Hollinger (00:00)
Welcome back to Sips and Software, where we talk about the people, the ideas, and the technology shaping the heavy-duty transportation industry. I'm Jamie, your host, and today I'm joined by Jim Allen, our CEO here at Karmak We get into AI, technology, the ransomware attack we survived, his leadership style, and just what's next for Karmak. Not to mention a little glimpse into our 2026 conference that we're hosting here in October.

So grab your favorite drink, settle in, and let's

get going.

Jamie Hollinger (00:48)
Mr. Jim Allen, how are you?

Jim Allen (00:50)
Well, how are you, Jamie? Good.

Jamie Hollinger (00:52)
I'm pretty good. Good. I'm

very excited that you have officially joined the podcast.

Jim Allen (00:58)
Well, I tried to run as much as I could, but you caught me. So there I am.

Jamie Hollinger (01:03)
Yeah, I think I called you out on the last episode about the coffee, which was but hey, look, it worked. You're on.

Jim Allen (01:08)
That's right. I'm here. I'm excited. I don't know. Thanks for asking me to be on. It's good.

Jamie Hollinger (01:12)
Yeah, I'm very excited to get into some good questions and some good discussion with you. but before we do that, I like to since our podcast is Sips & Software, make it laid back, casual, but I want to ask you what you're drinking today. So assuming

You've seen the other episodes. I know you have, 'cause we've talked about it. but what are you drinking? And so what fills your cup and also what what makes you happy? Like what fills your cup from an emotional, you know, excitement standpoint whenever you're feeling a little drained.

Jim Allen (01:45)
Enough. Well, so my literal cup, I pretty much only drink coffee and water, but I have a collection, a small collection, of cups that customers have sent me that I drink out of. So this is my standard coffee cup from my buddies

over at Truckworx So if it's black, I drink black coffee out of this thing, it's empty right now. And then I also have a smaller cup I use sometimes for my buddies over at Coast Counties. And then my water cup is blue.

From my guys over at Wiers so

Jamie Hollinger (02:16)
Wiers Yeah.

Jim Allen (02:17)
you know, I mostly use the cups customers give me because I'm just I just enjoy that for whatever reason. But that's all I really ever drink. I once in a while I'll have a black tea or something like that, but I really kind of reeled it in on the other stuff, you know, it was just kind of a health jerk thing. and

Jamie Hollinger (02:32)
Yeah. So how

real quick, how do I get one of those cups?

Jim Allen (02:37)
you just have to get people to like you enough to get your cup. So I don't know. You gotta

you kinda try harder, I guess. No, I think I

Jim Allen (02:47)
think it's just it's just customer relationships, you know,

Jamie Hollinger (02:50)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (02:51)
and you know, we give out some of our stuff and it kinda, you know, works that way. Sometimes customer visits. I've actually asked for a cup before, you know, I'm like, Man, I'm you know

Jamie Hollinger (02:59)
there's the truth. You asked for it. They didn't give it to you. You

asked.

Jim Allen (03:03)
Yeah, all they can do is say no, right? And then I

Jamie Hollinger (03:06)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (03:06)
guess figuratively, one of the things that fills my cup is just those relationships, honestly, and and seeing people grow, whether it's customers, employees, and just helping people grow is probably the most rewarding part of my job. So that's what really makes me happy from a professional standpoint and really personally too, is just really helping people out and helping them grow.

Jamie Hollinger (03:29)
So speaking of growth, you and I we have some history at Karmak right? We were on the sales team together at one point in time.

Jim Allen (03:36)
Yep, that's right. Yeah, I came into the company 2014 as a director in in sales and I was really kind of over account management.

Jamie Hollinger (03:46)
Yeah, so basically what a Michelle, she was on, I'm sure you've seen those episodes, but two of the other episodes. So you were basically doing what she was doing with our customers.

what led you then into the CEO role? Like can you talk about that a little bit for our audience? Like how how did you get in that seat?

Jim Allen (04:02)
Well, you know, it's it's a great question. And and I would say that I did not come to Karmak with the master plan to become the CEO. I just did

Jamie Hollinger (04:11)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (04:11)
not. And you know, my background's technology and IT, but I really the big part of my career was about being closer to customers and of course business responsibility. But when I joined, I started slowly getting more involved in those customer-facing roles and I actually created the client services group.

and started running then I got promoted as an executive over that and then I became COO I think early 2020 and you know, just a little more responsibility and then in 2021 the board and the owners, the Schiens at the time, decided it was time for a change and they gave me a call and said, We'd like you to step in the role and I'm like, Are you guys serious?

Jamie Hollinger (04:56)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (04:56)
Because it was never really part of my plan and I was honored and flattered, of course. but really I understand that, you know, it is a different job. So each step of my career gave me this broader view of the company. Increased rush responsibility, of course, but it I never viewed it as winning a prize. It was more accepting an obligation to our customers and our employees and our shareholders and and the whole industry really. So, you know, I've I've navigated that.

to the transition of employee ownership. So now of course we're one hundred percent employee owned. So we've d been through some adversity with the ransomware attack and some acquisition stuff. So it's really been great. And I think it's you know, one of the things I I believe that you have to understand is understanding the customer's business well enough to feel the consequences of my decisions as the leader of Karmak So

That's, you know, one of the reasons why back when I bought that semi truck and got my CDL, I really wanted

Jamie Hollinger (05:57)
yeah.

Jim Allen (05:57)
to be closer to that reality of what their customers feel. So I just kinda once I decided that I'm gonna accept this position, I dove in with both feet and I'm like, I just became obsessed that much more with the industry that I already loved.

Jamie Hollinger (06:11)
Yeah, that's great. Did you you got rid of the truck, didn't you?

Jim Allen (06:14)
I I like to say I sold

Jamie Hollinger (06:16)
More.

Jim Allen (06:16)
it for a profit instead of getting rid of it.

Which is I learned

Jamie Hollinger (06:19)
he dumped it to the side.

Jim Allen (06:21)
in the business that if you buy a truck and sell it and you do okay, that's a good thing. So yeah, I've only got the experience of buying and selling one truck, but it was still a good experience. I did pretty good.

Jamie Hollinger (06:30)
Yeah, I

I saw I've seen it multiple times, but I never got to sit inside of it. A little bummed about that.

Jim Allen (06:36)
it I'm

sorry about that, but that is gone and it was a heck of a journey. I had a lot of fun with

Jamie Hollinger (06:41)
So are you gonna do anything else like similar or are you gonna what's your next adventure that you're gonna surprise everybody with from a you know fun standpoint? We'll we'll talk about the work stuff in a little bit, but do you have any other anything up your sleeve?

Jim Allen (06:52)
Yeah, you know, nobody'll be more nobody'll

be more surprised than me because I didn't know I was gonna buy a truck. I just get these ideas in my head and I try to run out and if they stick around long enough I'll probably do something about it. So I don't have any big plans to like get another truck or anything, but I see things, you know, coming on the market or different stuff and I think probably it'd be cool to have that. But right now I'm just trying to stay focused on what we're doing and try not to get too distracted with the side project.

Jamie Hollinger (07:20)
Yeah, which is a lot. since you became CEO, a lot of big things have happened for Karmak You know, the ESOP, we became a hundred percent invested, right? and just lot there's lots happening in the industry. So

From an ESOP standpoint, Giulia and I talked a lot about that. And what is your high level kind of take on where where we're at now from an ESOP standpoint versus where we've been?

Jim Allen (07:45)
Well I I think for from an you know, an ESOP is first of all, we've learned a lot about what it means to be an ESOP. we've attended some we've, you know, belonged to some organizations that are helping educate us with that. Our trustee has been fantastic. Kay shout out to Kayla Adams. in the educational standpoint of it and the governance of what that looks like. new board, pretty much almost an entire new board.

that are very experienced in ESOP. So it's been a learning journey of what that's like and trying to build wealth for employees, you know, and understanding what that share price valuation looks like. So a lot of it, you know, we're still, even though it's been a couple of years, like three or so years, we're really starting to understand what it means and how to focus on things that help the greater good of the ESOP. So I think it also from a cultural standpoint

Employees are starting to understand it a little more. Yes, okay, so I'm making this money that Karmak does well and it's worth a little bit more, but how does that impact my how I operate? Like am I empowered to make decisions more? you know, do I act as an owner? Meaning I'm gonna take care of this customer no matter what, and I take complete ownership of that, those kind of things. So I do think there's a huge cultural benefit, and I think we're really

starting to feel that.

Jamie Hollinger (09:06)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (09:07)
I think our employees are proud of that and they understand the difference between a third party that's making demands on us because, you know, they've invested in us to coming from within and investing in ourselves. So I think we're really feeling that and really learning

how to be a good ESOP our trustee actually said out of the several that she manages, we're kind of a poster child for what you should be doing. So that took that as a huge compliment. Yeah.

Jamie Hollinger (09:32)
Yeah, that is. And

it's just fun to watch, you know, we have the little games on Slack and we learn about the different features and what's going on with ESOP companies and guessing the share price. Like it's yeah, I think it's become its own little thing within Karmak which is which is great.

Jim Allen (09:48)
For sure.

Jamie Hollinger (09:48)
So let's talk about the industry a little bit. So obviously there's lots going on. There's AI we could talk about. There's mobile, the increase of mobile trucks, there's acquisitions, like there's so much going on, and technology plays such a huge role in all of that. So in a nutshell, you know, without spending an hour, because I'm sure we could talk about this for an hour. what's your take on the industry and where it's going and where do you see it in five years with

All the crazy changes that's happening.

Jim Allen (10:18)
That's a that is a massive question. And and and you know,

Jamie Hollinger (10:20)
Loaded question. I know.

Jim Allen (10:21)
this is just my

I guess opinion or observations rather. But I'd say the first thing I would say that there's not one heavy duty market right now. There's several markets happening at the same time. And so freight conditions are improving in some areas, but recovery is very uneven. Equipment costs, interest rates, diesel prices, technicians' wages, and regulatory uncertainty are they're creating a lot of pressure. So fleets may have more confidence than they did a year ago, but they're still being careful.

With capital, which means they're not spending as much money. our dealers, our repair shops are telling us they need to create more capacity without adding people. So this technician shortage been going on for quite a while, has become a business model problem. So it's not really just a recruiting problem anymore. So the real question is, how do they how do we produce more billable work with the technicians they currently have?

So that's where technology comes in to bring diagnostics, scheduling, parts availability, mobile service, training, AI, all into that same conversation. And I really feel like service is where AI can have its bigger benefits. So I'm also watching relationships between the OEMs, the dealers, and

the fleets change a little bit. that's a big rabbit hole to go down, but that's something that I'm also kind of keeping an eye on. but

Basically who controls the customer relationship and the repair decision. So Karmak needs to ensure that this connected vehicle intelligence turns into dealer appointments, parts, approvals, warranty activity and and at the end of the day revenue. So

What's changing is where value gets created. So historically, the DMS or the business system documented what happened. So it's a data repository. It kind of documents

Jamie Hollinger (12:16)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (12:16)
what happened. So the next generation of our systems are going to reveal what's happening, predict what's likely to happen, recommend an action, and eventually help orchestrate the workflow. And that's where we're we're really getting good at right now. We're kind of in that in the fold

For that. So, you know, these connected trucks that are coming out are they can identify problems earlier. AI is going to help interpret those fault codes. They're going to summarize repair history, draft estimates,

clean up technician notes, and communicate with

Jamie Hollinger (12:49)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Allen (12:50)
customers. So mobile service is and will continue to grow, in my opinion. I've really seen a lot of that, more and more trucks coming out into the field. So

Consolidation, I think, continues to create larger groups that expect consistent processes and enterprise level data across every rooftop. So what isn't changed is is also important. Trucks are still physical assets and they're they're operating in difficult environments.

So someone still has to diagnose the problem, find the part, complete the repair, document the work, and then earn the customer's trust. I don't know that AI can do all of that. So it's still a relationship industry, in my opinion. And

Jamie Hollinger (13:35)
And

is that real quick, does that do those technicians have to have more tech experience and knowledge?

Jim Allen (13:42)
I don't know that they need to understand

Jamie Hollinger (13:42)
You know?

Jim Allen (13:43)
the technology as much as they they need more information to work more efficiently. So if they can get the information to do the repair much more quickly and in a more consumable

Jamie Hollinger (13:51)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (13:52)
way and then take some of the administrative stuff away from them so they can focus on working on the truck. That's what AI is gonna empower a more efficient workflow, in my opinion. So when you think about you know, a fleet might want a digital experience, but when several trucks are down

It still wants a trusted person on the other end of the phone. So you can you know, there's all these AI tools out there now and people are f kind of freaking out. There's a fringe of people that are very afraid of what AI is gonna do and there's people looking forward to it and then there's people in the middle. But the technology should make the person more capable and responsive. It shouldn't make the relationship colder, I guess would be one way to say it. But I think the the winners are the most productive companies out there.

are going to turn technology into operating performance. So they're going to have to redesign that service around technician capacity. they may they'll use remote diagnostics and guiding repairs to move more work down the skill curve. So when you think about managing parts inventory, it's working

Jamie Hollinger (15:01)
Mm, don't know.

Jim Allen (15:01)
capital instead of treating it like something that just sits on a shelf. They'll

They'll make customer communication more consistent at every location. Cause sometimes when you get a bunch of you've acquired a bunch of things, it's really hard to keep the service level and quality and experience at every location the same. So this can help

Jamie Hollinger (15:18)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Allen (15:20)
with that. And you know, rather than to try to depend on one exceptional service manager. So really it kind of can help level things out. But you know, we want to evolve the business system from being a system of record to a system of intelligence, is the way I've been

saying that and it's it's it has to become a orchestration layer so there's so much data and diagnostic tools and payments and all this stuff coming through it has to come together inside an actual workflow and i that's the way we're viewing that more and more

And as far as you know, MA activity and consolidation, I again, I think scale has its advantages in like accounting, HR, IT, purchasing all these things, but it is hard. And I think some of the larger organizations can struggle with that consistency. So we as a company as Karmak, we're trying to help the business operate as one company without losing the local relationships that made it successful. Does that make sense?

Jamie Hollinger (16:20)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (16:21)
So

AI and technology, I don't

think I I think I've said this, but I think the best AI in our industry won't look like a robot necessarily or a chat bot. It's gonna be more embedded in the workflow. So it it comes down to the repair order, how that workflow is all orchestrated. And again, it doesn't eliminate a technician or a service advisor. It gives them better context and it removes work that doesn't really require judgment. So they can move much more quickly. So that's if

That

makes sense. That's that's kind

Jamie Hollinger (16:58)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (16:59)
of my stance on that. Today, no, it's evolving so fast. If we did this next week, I may have a different answer.

Jamie Hollinger (17:05)
So like what so what could customers like start preparing for if they haven't already or if they're n you know, intimidated by AI or the direction? Like what are some things that customers could start doing or making sure they're doing in their operations?

Jim Allen (17:20)
Yeah, that's an awesome question. And I think for me that's simple. So AI needs to move one of five things: revenue, capacity, margin, cash, or customer experience. If it can help capture more work, multiply a technician's ability to do more work, reduce leakage, free working capital, all these things, then it's

It deserves serious attention. If it cannot connect to one of those outcomes, it might even be interesting, but it's it isn't probably strategic yet. So there's a big difference between experience or experimentation and adoption. So a few employees using Chat GPT is experimentation. Like we've we've licensed people, but we really at

Jamie Hollinger (18:07)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (18:07)
Karmak we want them to have a a a work case. Like what what am I doing with this technology instead of just having it? So there's still

Jamie Hollinger (18:14)
Right.

Jim Allen (18:15)
some experimentation, but adoption.

Option means a process performs differently. So if it has an owner training, governance integration and a measurable base and measurable baseline. So using chat GPT doesn't make you an AI company any more than Excel makes you a software company. So it's purposeful, like

It's purposeful use of it to solve a problem. So embedding intelligence into something and proving that it

performs better is really where people should be focusing, not just saying, I'm gonna buy a bunch of licenses and and play around it. I think that's great to do that to start understanding how it works. And I will stay, sometimes it still makes

mistakes. So that there needs to be a human in the loop. You need to double check the work. There's a lot going on around that and there's been some massive advances, but there's still some areas that are not perfect. So I think it's

important to people to remember that too, 'cause I try to mess it up. I try to you know, trick it up. I'll a I'll compete two systems

Jamie Hollinger (19:14)
Try to break it.

Jim Allen (19:15)
against each other just to see if I can get to argue and see who's right. But yeah.

Jamie Hollinger (19:21)
Yeah, I've I find that chat GPT will argue with me a little bit more than Claude. It's different. Yeah.

Jim Allen (19:26)
Yeah, it will. It it has a different personality for sure.

Jamie Hollinger (19:30)
Yeah. Like and I use for different reasons. You know, they they each have their pros and cons, in my opinion. But

Jim Allen (19:36)
Yeah. And one just one last thing, and you know,

when I was at MIT this past year and we did this symposium and it one of the things that I can say is governance c cannot be an afterthought. You you want to have prudent vigilance. So

I like that because we shouldn't be choose between innovation and responsibility, but we should move forward with ownership, guardrails, and checkpoints. So if you're gonna be using this stuff, have those in place because you can get yourself into trouble making a lot of assumptions with AI and assuming that it's perfect and you'll make some bad financial decisions. So you still have to check on things, at least what I've seen today. And there is some amazing stuff out there, but there has to be some governance in your business on how you utilize that and allow.

it to make big decisions. So that would be one thing I would caution people about.

Jamie Hollinger (20:28)
Yeah, and I think internally we're pretty good at that. So as you know, I manage our Salesforce database. And so everyone's wanting data, you know, they wanna run different queries and look at different analyze different things, but we have to make sure that it's accurate

Jim Allen (20:43)
Sure.

Jamie Hollinger (20:43)
and that we know what we're pulling and not just assume. It's like everyone's all excited and doing stuff,

Jim Allen (20:48)
Right.

Jamie Hollinger (20:49)
but gotta slow down and make sure it's it's accurate for sure. that's awesome. So

let's talk a little bit about leadership. So you kind of smile your are you nervous?

Jim Allen (21:01)
No.

Jamie Hollinger (21:03)
I'm kidding. so one thing I've always admired about you is your like sense of understanding people and talking to people and being so open, right? Like you'll always say, my door's always open. You can call if you want to pick up the phone and call me. If you want me to join a meeting.

Let me know. Send me the invite, I'll join. You know, so can you talk a little bit about your leadership style? I think you're are you would you consider yourself more of a servant type leader or yeah. And how and

Jim Allen (21:36)
Yes, a absolutely. And you know I

Jamie Hollinger (21:39)
another one more quick question before you go. How do you how have you identified your leadership style? Like so someone, so I'm a new leader, I just became a manager a year ago. So how do you recognize what your style is?

Jim Allen (21:54)
Well, I

I think that

Jamie Hollinger (21:54)
Hard question, but

Jim Allen (21:55)
yeah, that's a great question. I think it's as an extension of yourself and your personality and how you handle yourself anyway.

Like if you're a good, kind human being, you're probably gonna be a pretty good, kind leader. And you're going to have to make decisions that will upset people because they won't have the complete context of why you made that decision. And hopefully after a while they'll understand that maybe there's something I'm not aware of. Because I I believe that this leader's doing probably doing the right thing with the information they have. And I think, you know, one of the terms I use a lot is is I try to surround myself with people who are hungry, humble, and smart. I think you need all three. So hunger without humility.

Humility can damage a culture, right? I've seen a lot of big egos ruin a lot of businesses. Smart without hunger doesn't create momentum at all, and humility without confidence to make a decision can leave you stuck. So for

Jamie Hollinger (22:45)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (22:45)
me, my leadership style is I always feel like I'm still very much part of the team. I don't have a big ego about my title. And I think it's also that's part of the humble experience.

So this role, this CEO role is rented, not owned.

Yes, I'm an employee owner as well. But I need to build something

Jamie Hollinger (23:03)
I love that. Mm-hmm.

Jim Allen (23:06)
that's gonna go on long after I'm on the beach or whatever I'm doing, you know, post Karmak and I don't I don't have any plans of that being soon, but the the truth of it is is I think you have to keep that in mind. And when I believe that it's all about me then I need to go somewhere and do something else because I I just think that

It's too important of a position.

I hate to say it this way, but I I don't only give permission, but I expect my leaders that report to me to question me and to push me. we have a a customer that came and spoke speak to us, Zach Wagner, that said he has, you know, strong opinions loosely held.

Which means I really believe this, but if you give me new information, okay, I won't have to cling to it just to be right because I'm the boss. And I love

Jamie Hollinger (23:54)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (23:54)
that. And you know, I've I've had lots of examples where I was like, okay, this is what I think, and then the couple people on the team give me new information, and it's just like, okay, I avoided something that might not have been great.

But I listened to my team and I listen to employees. I also don't feel that my job is better than yours or any any frontline employee. We all have different responsibilities. That's it. So I commit to the employees that I will give my best A game every day, and that's what I expect from everybody else, no more, no less of what I'm setting the pace for. So I think your leadership style again, I think if you're kind of a jerk, you're probably gonna be a jerk, boss, right? I think it's it's an

Jamie Hollinger (24:36)
Yeah. That's fair.

Jim Allen (24:38)
exp

extension of your personality and then also of how you're trained. Are you, you know, formally educated in leadership? Are you kind of learning as you go? But more or less I think that that hungry, humble, smart has to be a a direct combination of how we operate as leaders, but also as people. I don't think it's any different at any level level. But earning the trust and the respect through transparency and through results obviously helps. If things are going well, I'm a better CEO than when they're not.

Probably. but you know that's I I just think that you know, again, when when you're close to the company and you're not blind to everything going on, you're closer to the consequences of your decisions. So the better your decisions tend to become as a result of that. So I will also suffer my bad decisions if I make them. So

Jamie Hollinger (25:28)
Yeah. Well, like you said,

you're one of us you know, we're all we're all employees of this company, right? So you yeah, whatever you decide you're you're also gonna be affected by it. So that just just as a manager as well, you know.

okay, so we're kind of running out of time, but before we wrap it up, I want to the last episode we did a rapid fire round, but I'm gonna call it rapid sips round. So we're gonna rapid sips. So get your drink.

Jim Allen (25:54)
Does it kind of s does a sip the same as a straw?

Jamie Hollinger (25:57)
Yeah, yeah, that is. You're sipping the through the straw.

Jim Allen (26:01)
Okay.

Jamie Hollinger (26:02)
Okay, so I'm gonna ask you questions. I don't know how many there are. I did write them out, so I'm gonna ask you questions though, and you just answer off the top of your head. Quick.

Jim Allen (26:13)
Do I have the choice

to use the Fifth Amendment?

Jamie Hollinger (26:17)
No. And you can't phone a friend. You can't do any of that. You have to answer.

Jim Allen (26:21)
Alright, hit me.

Jamie Hollinger (26:22)
Okay. Early adopter or wait and see.

Jim Allen (26:26)
Early adopter

Jamie Hollinger (26:29)
Why? Like give me a little why too.

Jim Allen (26:31)
I will say that the last couple of years I've been a little more slow in the middle there, but I was always if there was a technical gadget or a techie gadget that came out, I was the first one to get it because I was cu just a genuine curiosity. It wasn't that I'm like, look at me, I have the new thing as a status.

Jamie Hollinger (26:48)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (26:48)
It was more like, How does this work? You know, I when I got my first computer, whatever, in the late eighties, early nineties, whatever it was, I took it apart.

And I I just I I'm just very curious. So I always want the new thing. I wanna learn it. I'm the first one to try the new outlook even though I don't really love it.

but I I'm like I wanna start getting used to it. So I've just kind of that always been that way and it it it comes from a curious place more than anything.

Jamie Hollinger (27:14)
Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Okay, phone call or email?

Jim Allen (27:18)
phone call. And that for me, you know, if you if emails are great and they're probably necessary

But I enjoy connecting to people. It's hard to get context and tone and body language out of an email. So if there's something that's even remotely important, I'm gonna call. I pick up the phone and call our customers. I might text them first, you know, respectfully, 'cause who knows what people are doing and when I have my sudden whim to reach out. But typically speaking, I prefer to be to hear the person or even a video call. I've known

I'm known to drop in on those as well.

Jamie Hollinger (27:54)
Yeah, you have done that. You'll just call. Yeah, which is good. Yeah. data or gut instinct.

Jim Allen (28:04)
boy. if I'm being honest,

Jamie Hollinger (28:06)
Putting you on spot, huh?

Jim Allen (28:08)
professionally probably a little closer to data, personally way

Jamie Hollinger (28:11)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (28:12)
more instinct because I can I can manage the burden of my risk personally more than I would professionally if that makes sense. Thanks. No.

Jamie Hollinger (28:21)
That's a great answer. And you did not have these before, so this is good.

yeah, AI, overhyped or underestimated?

Jim Allen (28:33)
So this is something that's really interesting. I've there's several camps on this, and I think you just mentioned two. I'm in the middle. I think that governance is super important with this stuff. And this summer has been nuts with what's been able to happen with AI from the hugging face issue that happened. And so there's there's real concern there around what this technology can do and has the capability of doing. And it like any great tool, it can be used for wonderful things, but also in the wrong hands, it can be devastating. So I

think I'm I take a much more educate myself on it and try to understand it and stay up on it. I I'm on it every day. and so for me I'm kind of in that middle ground of where I understand the hype, I understand the the danger, but from a company perspective, I want to be very responsible in what we do and how we manage that so that we don't slip to either one of those because I think

I it's a healthier approach.

Jamie Hollinger (29:34)
Yeah. So you answered it without answering it, but I'll let it slide. You are, yeah. Which is understandable.

Jim Allen (29:38)
Was that a word salad? I think I am in the middle because I'm d I've never the team

the team teases me because I'm an optimist on most things. This is how I've lived my life. I always try to see the good in people, the good in situations.

Jamie Hollinger (29:50)
Mm-hmm. Same.

Jim Allen (29:52)
Even when we talk about a cybersecurity event that we had, there were good things that came out of that. We're stronger, better, more educated, and we've helped other people as a result of that.

Bad

situation,

Jamie Hollinger (30:03)
For sure.

Jim Allen (30:05)
good outcome. so that's why I tend to lean into more like AI can be a very good and useful tool if we check the boxes that it don't become nefarious.

Jamie Hollinger (30:16)
Yeah, there's the there's the disclaimer for sure, right? Yeah.

Jim Allen (30:19)
That's right.

Jamie Hollinger (30:21)
Okay, early bird or night owl. Or you can be like me and it neither. I want to go to bed early and I want to sleep in.

Jim Allen (30:24)
boy. I was a night owl. Yeah. Wow. Most of my life, late night

owl, night owl four, sure. I don't think I ever went to bed to midnight till the two thousands, right? It was just how I lived my life. And now getting a little bit older, so I try to get in bed at a decent hour. And I've become earlier, but it's kind of been forced

on me through my own desire to live a healthier life, get up, get my exercise in, and so I'm prepared for the day. I feel better physically, so I feel better emotionally too when I approach work, especially on a stressful day. So I have switched. I still wouldn't say I love getting up early, but I I am an early bird kind of against my will, but under my own direction. So that's a that's

Jamie Hollinger (31:11)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (31:12)
a weird answer, but that's the truth. I've loved to my own devices.

Jamie Hollinger (31:14)
I would have to agree with you.

Jim Allen (31:16)
if I had no responsibility, I'd probably be a night owl.

Jamie Hollinger (31:19)
Yeah, yeah. I actually I would almost a hundred percent disagree with your answer there. Very similar to how I live, but okay, what is one app that you cannot live without?

Jim Allen (31:33)
cannot live without. geez. You know, I've I use FaceTime a lot. I've we've got a lot of grandkids. So I

Jamie Hollinger (31:41)
That's good.

Jim Allen (31:42)
use that a lot and texting is probably my biggest app. Outside of that, I don't know that there is. I could probably delete them all. I mean I have Facebook and all that stuff, but I

Jamie Hollinger (31:51)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (31:51)
could live without it tomorrow because I didn't grow up with it. I'm not as addicted. I do look at it and use it, but I don't know that there's one

Other than, you know, I do, you know, look at some technical channels and news and stuff on technology. So I'm probably more obsessed with that kind of thing. But I don't really play games. I'm I know it's weird, you know, usually people in tech they're all video game.

Jamie Hollinger (32:11)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (32:12)
I'm just not. I'm more interested in what the technology can do for business, really, as as nerdy

Jamie Hollinger (32:17)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (32:17)
as that sounds. But so I would say probably anything social would be more my style.

Jamie Hollinger (32:23)
next one. If you this is kind of fun. If y they're all fun, I think, but if you could do another job at Karmak for one day, what would it be? And some not something you've done before.

Jim Allen (32:34)
I was gonna say I was going right back to Michelle's job. Like

Jamie Hollinger (32:36)
Nope.

Jim Allen (32:36)
I lost love being in front of customers. So probably for me Geez, Jamie, I kinda like your job. You seem to be having a good time over there. I'm probably not qualified.

Jamie Hollinger (32:49)
Do you want to go back to doing the podcast?

Jim Allen (32:52)
yeah, I love that kind of thing, you know, the MC

Jamie Hollinger (32:53)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (32:54)
stuff, the conference stuff. I love just being out there mixing it up with the customers. Any customer facing a role to me is great. So things that I haven't done directly would be more in like product or development, but I'm probably wouldn't be that great at those. I've done the IT thing, that's kind of where I came up, but those are kind of where I'd be comfortable. It'd be more IT or salesy stuff. But I've never done direct sales either. So I could be willing to give it a go.

I don't know that I'd find success.

I've always worked around sales in a supportive role. But the most hilarious job for me and what I'd really like to do is that VP of HR.

Jamie Hollinger (33:34)
Maybe you need to talk to Gail about that one.

Jim Allen (33:36)
That's right.

Jamie Hollinger (33:39)
That's yeah, that's f yeah, you would you would do pretty well at selling. Go try to sell fusion. Sell Blaze.

Jim Allen (33:43)
Perhaps. yeah,

I I would like to and I have done a little bit of that. I get involved in some deals sometimes and you know, through relationships with some customers when they're have a reference or something, I'll get involved, but typically I'll let the pros do what they do.

Jamie Hollinger (34:00)
Okay, last one, what is the best leadership advice you've ever received?

Jim Allen (34:08)
Man, I I would say one that I preach a lot and have I had to learn myself is the simple principle of I before e, intellect before emotion.

So oftentimes I can get in a situation where I'm trying to lead, inspire, or correct some behaviors, or this and that. I'm a passionate man. I can get upset about things. I'm pretty even-tempered. My wife would tell you I don't yell. I just not much of a yeller, but I do get upset about things. But I've learned that like when something happens that is usually it's an injustice or some kind of situation on behalf of somebody else that gets me going. I have to really just stop.

And understand that if I if I react emotionally, it's not going to be as good as if I react using my intellect. So a lot of times it's the cooler head prevails thing a little bit. And it's like, but out of respect for the person that I'm coaching, I want them to get

the best out of me and not clouded by my emotional judgment because I might say something differently if I was upset. So I really do live by that as a leader, and I've had to have

Difficult conversations with a lot of people in my career at Karmak and other places, and I really have to apply that, and it's always a better outcome. And there's a lot of things about being a leader, but I think how you treat people with love and respect, they deserve respect for sure. so cooling off any emotions that are unnecessary and having the a good heart-to-heart discussion is always going to be a better outcome. So, how to be a leader is practicing good basic leadership skills.

And that's top of mind for me in this position.

Jamie Hollinger (35:53)
I th yeah, that's wonderful. I think that also goes just in your personal life, right? Like it makes

Jim Allen (35:58)
For sure.

Jamie Hollinger (35:58)
me think, you know, in sports, a lot of these teams they say, do not, you know, if you have a problem or if you have issues with your kids playing time or you're upset about something, like sleep on it and bring it up the next day. Like you don't 'cause sometimes you just react because it's you're in the moment and you're heated or but it's good to just take a minute and step back and for personal and for work and being a leader. That's great.

Jim Allen (36:19)
For sure. And you know, I've never had to really yell at yeah.

I don't yell at people at work. I really try not to do stuff like that. I I try to be a leader that I would want to work for. And that's the truth, 'cause like you, we all have suffered horrible bosses, and we've all had the pleasure of working for really amazing people. So we're taught and we're learned what to do but also what not to do. And sometimes the what not to do is the bigger lesson. It's like I will never want to be

treated that way. Therefore, it's the golden rule. I'm not gonna treat people like that just because I think I can get by with it because I have a title or influence or whatever's going on in my life. I just don't think that's right. So that's where I before E comes in. It's my biggest tip. you can utilize that and you owe me nothing.

Jamie Hollinger (37:05)
I just wrote it down, even though this is being recorded. But I love it. Yeah. That's great. okay, so before we wrap it up, I want to talk really quick about conference. So not to make this a plug, right? Like, go to conference, everybody. However, why should customers sign up besides the fact that I'm the MC?

I'm kidding. But are you are you sad I took that from you?

Jim Allen (37:27)
Well that was gonna be my first thing.

Well, first of all, it's exciting that you are. And no, you didn't take it, I gave it to you. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Jamie Hollinger (37:36)
that's right. You did.

Jim Allen (37:38)
I think that conference coming up is awesome.

October 20, 21, 22 in St. Louis. I think we're expecting over 500 people. We have a huge expo, like over 50 exhibitors, which is is become a very big trade show, which is really kind of great.

Jamie Hollinger (37:54)
It's amazing.

Jim Allen (37:55)
So the goal was to have everything that our customers in our industry can come and have great conversations around. So I'm most excited of all that is great. We have a you know parties and dinners together and get to know each other, but the what I get most excited about every year is just the quality.

of the conversation. So

Jamie Hollinger (38:13)
huh.

Jim Allen (38:13)
conferences always felt a little like a family reunion. I'm a bit of a hugger. I'll hug customers. Like I just enjoy seeing people and being around it.

It's a working session for the industry is really what it is. And and so there's all this networking and time to have these discussions. Yes, there's a bunch of structured classes where we can learn and have great discussion, but some of the stuff in the in the breaks and stuff are really fantastic. And I also do an executive session where I have twelve industry leaders come in a room and we talk about customer challenges that they're having. And I really just kind of lead the discussion. It's not a Karmak commercial at all. We don't really talk about Karmak. It's more

like what challenge do you have and this person here has ideas and suggestions that someone else might not know and they could take that back. Super powerful. we'll talk honestly about issues that leaders are dealing with. And you know, some of these we've already mentioned. And then really what what my theme is what's a dealership of 2030 look like? What's it look like five, ten years down the road?

with all that is changing and you know technology is one of those. So they're gonna see of course what's next

Jamie Hollinger (39:22)
huh.

Jim Allen (39:24)
across Fusion Blaze, Truckmore, all of the products we have, they'll see all of that. But I don't want it to be three days of product theater. I want people to leave with something that they can

Jamie Hollinger (39:32)
Right.

Jim Allen (39:34)
use and a a process to improve, you know, something like that. decisions that they can make differently or ideas they learn from another operator, which is again that's a huge benefit of people coming. So

I think that's what I look forward to the most. I think the bottom line is why

a customer should be excited to come to this. They're gonna see where Karmak has gone, but they're also gonna have a real opportunity to help shape it.

And I think that's where we listen really well to our advisory groups and listening to customers. If I'm proud of much, it's that we have really become better listeners to our customers and helping to to frame our roadmap. And as far as your debut as host and mc, I'm excited about it because it allows me to really

Jamie Hollinger (40:19)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (40:20)
focus on this kind of topic, like what do people really want to understand where Karmak's going. I think you'll be a breath of fresh air. I think people had enough of me. So it's good.

Jamie Hollinger (40:29)
No.

Jim Allen (40:30)
It'll be fun and exciting. I'll still be on on the stage talking about some important topics, but I'm happy to pass the baton on to you to let you kinda host the the the show a little bit. So really looking forward to it, Jamie.

Jamie Hollinger (40:45)
Yeah, I am too. I think it's gonna be a great year. It's it's funny to think back of our partners that used to attend. There would be like three, four, you know, now it's handfuls, dozens. It's crazy.

So if there's something that Fusion doesn't do, we likely there's a partner there that can integrate with us. So it's

It's cool, really. It's been awesome to see it grow. okay.

So before we wrap up, I always like to kind of ask my guests, like, give me one takeaway for our our audience. So what's one takeaway that they can walk away with to understand Karmak and the direction of where we're going a little bit? And you can make it kind of short and sweet.

Jim Allen (41:23)
Okay, I'll do my best for that, you know. I can ramble. So I guess I'm excited

Jamie Hollinger (41:25)
Yeah.

Jim Allen (41:27)
about Karmak's position today. So we understand commercial transportation, we have deep operational data, and we sit inside the workflows where work actually gets done. So with Fusion and Blaze and Truckmore and Karmak Mobile Service Plus, Unity Pro, our broader integration ecosystem that we talked about, we have an opportunity to connect the entire journey.

From the vehicle signal to the completed repair customer relationship. So the important thing is to stay focused. We shouldn't chase every shiny object. We should identify meaningful problems, select the right technology, measure the result, and scale what works.

Jamie Hollinger (42:06)
Think you nailed that. Great job.

Jim Allen (42:09)
That's it.

Jamie Hollinger (42:10)
okay. Well, thank you, Jim, so much for joining me today. I know I I took your role of the old podcast, but I think it's going good and I think this is a great episode. So thank you.

Jim Allen (42:22)
Think there's

a theme here. You're just taking stuff away from me. What's going on, Jamie? What's really going on?

Jamie Hollinger (42:26)
I mean I I'm about

to take one of those cups that you have if you

Jim Allen (42:30)
No, I cherish those, so you know. Trucks roll.

Jamie Hollinger (42:35)
That's

awesome. and thank you everyone for listening today, whether you're on the road, at work, or somewhere in between, thank you for spending some time with us. We hope you grab your favorite drink and join us for the next episode. Until then, keep learning, connecting, and never let your cup run empty. Cheers.

Jim Allen (42:54)
Cheers.

‍